I would agree with Milo’s assessment to a degree. “Hero” is a bit of a stretch, as well as protagonist. I would not be surprised if any actor needs to see himself or herself as such, and I definitely think it applies to Lorelai. She absolutely meets the definition in literature of a protagonist with a tragic flaw (her arrested development). And the brilliance of her playing herself as justified in all of her actions is that it made her charming and more complex.

I think for Dean, I try to put him in the context of the series. Yes, I think he threatened to behave in the bad ways of Jess, but it did not last, and he never did it to the degree Jess did. Yes, before he could not take it anymore and had to leave Rory after the way she treated him at the dance, he smothered her. But if we remember, in earlier episodes, Rory admitted that he called her 10 times and she seemed to like it. And he apparently learned, backed off, and was not unjustified in feeling that his relationship was threatened and was trying to save it. Of course his marriage to Lindsey and his affair was a low point, but again I gave credit to Dean for saying several times after his breakup that he hurt Lindsey and didn’t want to keep hurting her by being seen in public with Rory. Rory never apologized to Lindsey as far as we know, and the single episode of shame Rory seemed to experience was much too quick and never brought up again, except by Dean who admitted over and over again when he was wrong.

Like so many characters on the show, his character degraded as he was used in the plot. By Season 6 Emily cannot even recognized Spanish or tell a blueberry from a raspberry! I don’t know who was responsible for all of it, and we have to take it all for the character as is, but at least Jess was redeemed and used in the later Season for good — and maybe would be heroic after all.

Many thanks.

On Jess – I thought the actor’s comments on Jess’ behaviour were interesting, have you seen them (link below)? He doesn’t see his character as a tragic hero (although that site describes him in that fashion elsewhere).
http://www.gilmoregirls.org/news/367.html

On Dean – I’ve always had trouble, past the first season, of liking Dean. The character, when facing difficulties in his relationship started trying to do more and more for Rory almost suffocating her. I did like him walking away at the dance – I felt that showed a bit of honesty and self-respect. However, after that he almost starts to pick up Jess’ failings; taunting him (the first time he sees him after the split), starting a fight (at the Keg party) and generally going down hill. And that’s before he got married and cheated on his wife. I dunno, I just wasn’t impressed.

Dean is not perfect. He made many mistakes, and his outburst attacking Jess not noble — clearly backed by rage that should have been controlled or released some other way — but Dean admitted it. Notice how he was contrite and already gone to the house to make up for the damage he caused? But we also have to put it in context. In general, Dean was non-violent — resisting fighting with Tristan, trying to keep Jess from fighting. He was even taunted by Jess repeatedly, humiliated in public and had lost someone he loved to Jess — ALL of that he RESISTED fighting Jess. He only hit Jess when he saw Rory crying with Jess coming after and thought Jess had hurt her. In Dean’s mind, he used the moment to protect Rory, but also to release his anger. And he went into “overdrive” trying to make up for it. Lindsey must have seen him rush to Rory’s defense, and humiliated, it’s probably why, after Rory did not run to him, he felt he should marry Lindsey.

I disagree that Lorelai and Jess’ rage are comparable – Lorelai is non-violent and throughout the show has never applauded men fighting (for example, when Luke pushed Dean from the diner, or attacked Nicole’s lover’s car, or tolerating Jess’ violence).

But I have said many times — prompting criticism that I do not like the show – that Lorelai is a troubled woman and there is no real explanation for the depth of her childish behavior. As charming, beautiful and funny as she can be, at her best she is mature and growing, but at her worst, she is the epitome of a spoiled, narcissistic, and immature child. I agree with Richard, that he and Emily did nothing to deserve having her run away, as she turns her back on many people, pushes them away, throws fits, and worst of all, turned her back on Rory for months. And the way she treated Max (in Season 3), Christopher (from the beginning), and Luke (especially in Season 2, 4 and 6) is particularly troubling.

There is, though, an explanation for the childish side of her behavior. Giving birth at 16 — and if anyone does the math, it probably means she got pregnant at FIFTEEN — she lost her childhood. She had to grow up too fast to become a mother. Most of us ARE childish in some ways at 16 because we are children.

But her anger and resentment of her parents or anyone who disagrees with her, perhaps a trait Amy shares, is not productive. Even when Lorelai just is trying to tell someone what to wear or do, she cannot let it go when someone disagrees with her — she teases, jokes, harasses — clearly taking it personally that everyone does not agree with her all the time.

Sadly, in Seasons 1-3 she seemed to grow out of this behavior, until Amy and Dan decided in Seasons 5 and 6 to show that her “tragic flaw” was something she struggled to overcome. But that is why maybe we all still watched.

None of us are perfect. We all need to grow in different ways. But the idea that someone will endorse Jess and Lorelai’s behavior (or for example, Luke punching Christopher for Lorelai’s mistake) is something we should all be concerned with. Liking a person for their good traits should not mean embracing and defending their bad ones.

I take your points, but you don’t commment on Dean for the fight or Rory / Lorelai for their behaviour – do you see those as rages too? And were they justified?

With all respect, I have to disagree about Jess. I think it’s interesting that you use words like “overkill” and say you went to a violent school as if that is the way it’s supposed to be. In much of the world it is not — and we have standards where there are not repeated killings in our offices and schools and shootings on television every day.

But that’s another topic.

I lived in New York City for several years, where Jess supposedly came from. It is a diverse and wonderful city, where many children ride the subway and are non-violent, and many of the schools there are excellent and safe. Just because Jess went to school in New York, we do not know if he went to a violent school, or had a violent home, or had any other reason to be angry or violent, that his home was violent, or other things in his life made him so.

Yes, violence breeds violence and if it is usual in your school Lathany I am sad that it was normal behavior. There are other ways to live.

As I said, some people are angry perhaps, we believe, because of biology, adrenaline, primitive leftovers from evolution in our genes. Luke, Liz, and Jess all have tempers that may be something other than conditioning.
That said, Jess’ rage if not biological or chemical should be justified.

The “golden rule” that I know Americans claim to believe (and more when they claim to be religious) teaches that you treat people like we want to be treated. If Jess can act so selfishly and so bitterly to so many people, why is there such a need to defend him? It’s not behavior any of us in society would expect the world to accept and love us when we do not show the same consideration for other people.

I also find this interesting in light of the comments on Amy Palladino wanting to still write Gilmore Girls because the stories she has to tell are about battling your family and no therapy curing that. As Josh said, this tells you something about Amy, as well as Jess, not to mention Lorelai, Emily, Luke, Paris and so many other characters on the show who have real problems with rage. If even therapy cannot help you with these issues, our dear Amy, what does that say? She seems to understand in her writing that all these explosions and hatreds have horrible consequences — and makes fun of people for their temper tantrums — but then, like so many here, tend to defend it as if it’s the way it is, and therefore, should be, especially her own behavior.

This, my Gilmore Girl friends, is WHY so many people are upset with Amy for leaving her show. Rather than staying calm at the end of Season 6, as even Michael Ausiello suggested, finishing the show with dignity on one more year, she quit in a huff and continues to suggest in interviews she holds grudges, blaming other people for ruining her show. This is what you get when you think this behavior is normal.

At least Amy saw that Jess had to be broken for his behavior before he could be redeemed. And I don’t think EVEN she thinks his rage and selfishness were “normal” or appropriate. I think she made very clear that he brought on his rejection and isolation himself.

And I want to make a parallel between Lorelai’s freak out and leaving town before getting married (I don’t remember exactly, Max finds out that the wedding is off directly from Lorelai or someone else??) and Jess leaving town, leaving Rory without a word. I think that the two of them are alike form this point of view. When they hit the hard parts in their relationships they tend to run away because they are scared. Now, what is worst: when a mature woman leaves his future husband and runs from the wedding or when a rebel, troubled teenager leaves town (when he is forced by the situation that he caused-he was his fault after all) without saying anything to his girlfriend? All the people that hate Jess and blame him for what he did to Rory, they don’t think for a minute that what he did wasn’t such a crime for what he never must be forgiven. I mean Lorelai (and I love her character) did, in my opinion something much worse giving the fact that she is an adult and was on her way to getting married-a much deep relation.

Sorry for the off topic. Now to respond the questions: I am positive about the swan thing (it was quite funny that Jess got “beaked” and to make another parallel, Rory also got hit by a deer=)) What is it with the animals in Stars Hollow that they are so violent???). I was sad that he didn’t tell the truth to Rory but I think that he thought Rory would think he is weak and a loser-I mean who gets attacked by swans besides maybe Kirk, since the cats don’t like him also=))- and he was very unsure of himself giving the fact that Rory firstly think he fought with Dean and didn’t believe him before Dean made her sure that was no fight. Many communication issues between them…
Long post, sorry if I’m boring!

Yes, there are similarities between them, although I would be wary of taking that too far as I can’t imagine Jess raising a kid at the same age as Lorelai did (and all that went with that).

There’s been various posts about what if Jess came back again after season 6; usually in connection with restarting a relationship with Rory. I think it would have been interesting for him to come back just to explore this comparison with Lorelai. She hated him and hasn’t seen him since he sorted himself out; I think it would make interesting parallels with how her parents reacted to her after she made good with Rory and the Inn(s).

Rory even said i something is wrong i dont know what it is he was upset yadi yada yada

notice when luke and jess are screaming at eachother and when luke says then you have to go he is almost to tears ???

*they both hated their lives growing up
*they both made lots of mistakes
*they both were rebels
*they both hated their lifestyle
*they both hated their parents
*they both often ran away
*they both fall inlove fast in their relationships
*they both freak out in relationships
*they both had their eyes on someone in stars hollow
*they both got their act together when they grew up
*they both love rory
*they both love luke
*they both hate logan
*they both were dislike by the gilmores
*they both like the same music
*they both get jealous of other people’s relationship jess/dean logan lorelai/nicole
*they both used someone as bait to reel in the people they love
*they both make lots of mistakes
*they both are spontaneous

DOES ANYONE AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!